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Playwrights => Sarah Kane discussion => Topic started by: archive on August 16, 2007, 09:01:01 PM
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Hi! I'm Chrissie from Munich and I'm at the moment very busy in trying to understand 'Cleansed'. What do you think the 'university' can possibly stand for? For me there's not at all a campus-athmosphere or something like that. It's a place, where knowledge and science are supposed to be. Where people come as searchers to find knowledge (of themselves?), like the alchemists tried to find the philosphers stone to turn everything into gold. What do you think about that? And about the outside-inside duality, with the perimeter-fence as frontier?
Archive 14-1-2002
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The university campus has been converted into a prison camp.
Perhaps this is a reference to the 're-education' camps of the communist period in Eastern Europe?
Archive 15-1-2002
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I read on:'In-Yer-FaceTheatre' by Alex Sierz that a starting point for Cleansed was Roland Barthes's poem: 'A Lover Discourse'. It provided Sarah the idea that the situation of the rejected lover and the prisoner of a concentration camp is similar. In fact both situations involve a loss of the self. If you have the book you can find it on page 116.
gaia
Archive 17-1-2002
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I also came across another sugestion which I found interesting. University => universitas => universe. A small part of reality, microcosmos, where there are all the processes as in the "big world". God made our world, Tinker - the bad demiurg - has its own small world too. -Jolka-
Archive 17-1-2002
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I always assumed that 'Clensed' took place in the same universe as 'Blasted', like 'Blue Velvet' and 'Twin Peaks' in the work of Lynch. Also I did read somewhere that they were the first two parts of a unfinished trilogy.
From that I just assumed that the universaty campas had been over run by the same invading force as Leeds in 'Blasted', thugh time had moved on and they were more established. Tinker remides me of Josef Mengele a NAZI scientist in the war who would commit atrocotys on people, just to find out what would happern. His favorite subjects were twins, as then he could experement on one and use the second as a controle. The removeing of limbs to see how people would adapt was somthing he wrote in great detail.
Archive 17-1-2002
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Oh Jaidn, that is something that hadn't even occured to me, the Joseph Mengele thing...its quite comparable I think actually, well, I mean in terms of the experiments and stuff.
But I agree with you, the world that seems to exist in this play seems apart from everyday "reality" in many ways, as Jolka also pointed out, I think, a "microcosm" of the larger picture in some ways, tho after some of my experiences at the university as of late, I can also understand the link between that and the comment someone made about the "insular" effect of this, tho in my case, its been more Orwellian if anything! Paperwork! :)
Archive 18-1-2002
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A counterargument to the concentration camp and Tinker/Mengele hypothesis is that, firstly there are no signs that the others are forced to stay at this university, and secondly Tinker watches the "victims" BEFORE he cuts off their limbs etc. and not AFTERWARDS as Mengele. Thid indicates that his acting results from their behaviour and not the other way round. Now, the question is WHAT in their behaviour makes Tinker act the way he does. Or: What does he see?
Archive 19-1-2002
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There is a point that they are not held there that voilently, though there is a fence and they can't get out seemingly.
Though I think alot of what Tinker dose is sadistic just becouse he hates them. Which put's you in mind of Mark Ravenhills counter to the imfamaus 'Blasted' review.
Though wit the Mengele thing there are some parreles, when he would work with twins part of it would be not to see how the twin he harmed reacted, but the one who was forced to observe. Tinker is doing the similer thing though with lovers. Watching to see if there is any change in how Rod reacts to Carl befour and after.
Archive 20-1-2002
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The inmates do seem to be imprisoned - Robin says he 'could be released in 30 years' and it is his realising how long this is that finally drives him to kill himself.
What was Ravenhill's counter to the infamous Blasted review? I'd like to know this. (Though Mark did accept an invitation to speak at the scumball's funeral...)
Archive 21-1-2002
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Well I looked up the 'Blasted' thing in a copy of 'scumbals' book, and it re printed the review, as well as Ravenhills comment from another paper about 'being cruel just becouse...' his funaral speech, and a thing from Alan Corin criticising the review as bad journalisum.
Though I didn't buy the book, even though it had been reduced to £1.
Archive 21-1-2002
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There's no doubt that there are parallels, but I think for an "analysis" of the text, for an "imaginary" staging the relationship between the characters is more interesting than the Third Reich as a model for its use as metaphor. I want to look behind this metaphor to gain possible meanings and that's a hopeless venture on your own. What's important with the concentration-camp-thing is the extreme situation, that everybody (victim and perpetrator) is 'thrown back' on his own bare existence and has to act in extreme ways. And for this reason this surrounding is relevant for 'Cleansed'. But the characters themselves are not Nazis and jews. This are modern people of our days. They have no Hitler to obey and punishment in this play does not clearly result from a law-and-order-ideology. It results from and affects personal and emotional relationships (also to oneself) and not social or political status. I find it very difficult to itemise this play.
Archive 21-1-2002
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That is a point, though another thing that comes to mind when reading 'Cleansed' is a quote from the film 'The Addiction'. "We are not evil becouse of the evil that we do, we do evil becouse we are evil". Which seems to sum up Tinker quite nicely. I beleve that the quote was origanaly taken from a Anti Vietnam peice, though I don't know.
Archive 22-1-2002
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I really don't think, that Tinker is only evil. It would be too simple and I don't think it would be interesting to stage this play then. For me Kane's characters are much too ambivalent and I think Tinker mainly is a 'nice guy' for the audience and then act as he does. And the fatality is, that the audience and the other figures underestimate the danger he represents. I think he is not evil, but highly dangerous.
Archive 22-1-2002
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To Tinker compare what I wrote on 14/15-01 under the subject 'Cleansed - I had a theory'.
Also, I'm further on interested on your thoughts concerning the structure of the setting and general opinions of a possible stage scenery.
Archive 22-1-2002
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Well...regarding the character of Tinker: I would say that instead of saying that he is "evil" or "dangerous" perhaps instead we could say that he is most definitely manipulative and controlling? I mean, in some ways, he treats the lives of the other characters as if they were pawns in an elaborate, macabre and rather morbid game of his, moving them around, as if on a chess board, trying to gage their reactions, and, by extenstion of this, their limits of endurance, which ultimately could be seen as sacrficial...you know, how much are you willing to sacrifice, to give up, to be martyred for this love you profess?
So even tho the physical torture he inflicts is unbelievably brutal in nature, maybe the REAL torture is more mental and emotional, as if he is almost taking the characters to task in this way, how much ARE they willing to give up, for love? Well...these are just some thoughts, and I'm still not fully awake yet so...go easy on me! :)
Archive 23-1-2002
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Yes, it's complicated. Perhaps for a deeper sight it could be instructiv to regard the two or three worlds in wich Tinker operates: 1)inside the university: 1.1) The Grace etc. world 1.2.) The Peep-Show 2) outside the university: The Rod/Carl world.
Inside he acts as a helping figure for Grace and Robin, without being aware about the evil he does. He acts like a professional 'doing his job'. On the contrary I have the impression, that in the peep show scenes, although that's usually a public place, he is more private than in the other scenes.
Outside he is watching most of the time. And that's the reason why I asked before: WHAT does he see? Carl and Rod are homosexual, they cannot be rivals in his desire for Grace. He cuts systematically off the 'lying limbs' of Carl and murders Rod. Carl represents the conventional side of partnership (to marry etc.) and Tinker reveales its mendaciousness.
I think cruelties and injuries can be understood highly metaphorically in Kane's plays.
I'm not sure, if the 'victims' feel any pain by getting hurt. Only in the red room, there's pain. But pain which is mostly (the cutting of the tongue reminds me of the outside scenes) without any visual injuries.
It's very hard to get this thougts sorted, especially in English.
Archive 23-1-2002
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One thing that struck me last week was the colour of the room... 'The Red Room'
Archive 23-1-2002
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The Red Room...where I lost my heart to a dancing dwarf! :)
Archive 24-1-2002
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yltcaxe ;)
Archive 24-1-2002
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A dancing dwarf ?!?
Archive 25-1-2002
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Just think of coffee and cherry pie :)
Archive 24-1-2002
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There's also an analogy to alchemy:
black: the 'prima materia', the material base for the further conversion (--> coffee?)
white: white heat, the first transformation (--> cake?)
red: the ultimate heat, where gold can be achieved, gold stands for the philsosophical union/'marriage' of body and soul/mind. (--> berries?)
Archive 25-1-2002
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Well yes, though I was acctually refering to a TV show when I mentiond 'Coffee and Cherry Pie', as it had a red room where good and evil coexist...
Archive 25-1-2002
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Well, you raise some very interesting points here...I do get the sense that Tinker is more closed off emotionally in the "peep" scenes also, but perhaps this could be because he is not in "control" as much? I mean an underlying motif I see in this play is one of control and manipulation with the character of Tinker.
As for the inside/outside the university world well...I can tell you from my own experience that it is a very insular world, and "power" is wielded as a weapon quite often...tho the power in this sense I mean more as an intellectual/emotional thing, which is really what Tinker does anyway, when you think about it...I mean, how warped must the other characters be to even seek out his approval or trust in the first place you know?
Archive 2-1-2002
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Tinker is actually opening up emotionally in the 'peep' scenes, pretending the Woman is Grace, saying to her what he wants to say to Grace but cannot bring himself to because he knows she won't return his love.
Archive 26-1-2002
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"Hmmm"...perhaps you are right about this, I might have to go back and re-read parts of it, I guess what I meant in relation to this is that the character of Tinker is closed off emotionally in general and this would seem to be even more so in the "peep" scenes because he is in fact, "looking" at someone that he cannot touch, there is a separation that exists and for me that seems to reflect the emotional nature of his character.
Archive 28-1-2002
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On the subject of the 'peep' scenes, I always wondered why the prison camp has sex peepshow booths. Perhaps the dancer symbolises Woman in general as a male fantasy figure (could be why she is called 'Woman' ?)
Archive 28-1-2002
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That's a point. As 'Woman' she's also only body, in opposite to the dead Graham, who is only soul. Compare Psychosis: "Body and soul never get married.' (Or something like that)
I think these two 'opposites' are very important for regarding Kanes work.
Archive 29-1-2002
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'Woman' is actually a very interesting character.
Is she a paid employee? Or is she an inmate, being punished by being made to do the sex shows?
I think she falls for Tinker from the beginning. She shouts with frustration when he uses her as a surrogate for Grace, because she wants him to appreciate her for herself. When he talks to her as herself for the first time, in scene 19 - because he needs to open out to someone about the loss of Grace - she is sympathetic and gives herself to him.
Archive 2-2-2002
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I always assumed that in the universaty complex there was a living area, and like militery bases in the third world a blind eye is turned to activatys like that being set up.
Archive 5-2-2002
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I'm doing pre-production work on this particular play--it doesn't open until June--and the tagline we're using on our postcards for the show is "Be careful what you wish for." I get the impression that Sarah seems to be saying that while love has it's redemptive qualities, it also hurts/scars us deeply.
The university symbolism seems pretty simple to me--every one of the characters "learns" something about himself while incarcerated.
Also, has anyone gotten the impression that Tinker is a patient like everyone else? Thus his comments, "I'm not responsible."
Archive 9-2-2002
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I'm sure Tinker is a guard - the others obey him however disagreeable they find his orders; he meets Grace at the entrance to deal with her (only a guard would be allowed to do this); in the original London production, which Sarah would have had an input into, he wore a guard's uniform.
Archive 9-2-2002
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Thanks, Jess. I didn't know that.
Archive 12-2-2002
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What a wonderful site this is.
I had to respond to the question: Why does Tinker respond by cutting Carl into pieces? It's very situation specific: First, he makes Carl betray Rod with words and cuts out his tongue so he can't speak anymore. Then, after he watches Carl try to communicate with Rod by writing, he cuts off Carl's hands so he can't write anymore. Then, after he watches Carl dance for Rod, he cuts off Carl's feet so he can't dance anymore. I read this as silencing, that Tinker is silencing Carl in the same way we silence each other, e.g., racism is not a topic we should discuss because it's so incendiary, despite the fact that racism underlies the entire foundation of our country (U.S.). In a way, it seems that Tinker does not want Carl to connect with Rod, though I can't say I've thought that out as well as the reason I believe Tinker is chopping Carl up.
Archive 20-2-2002
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Oh hey! You're from the states too! This is cool, as I think most people who post on this site are Europeans, which is cool as well, don't get me wrong, but I just had to comment on the racist thing: I agree with you 100%...there is SO MUCH that underlies our society in this country, that people just do not want to talk about (also why I think David Lynch is such a great artist, he always shows the "underside" of the picture)...and actually, I'll go out on a limb here and even say that I am quite freaked out with all this patriotism that has happened since the horrid events of September 11th...hope I'm not offending anyone saying that...but anyway, I think you're right about the "silencing" thing with regards to Carl and Rod, and you know its such a beautifully sad and very true human thing, that we will use virtually anything we can to create, to express and show love, feelings, etc...and so this "cutting off" is very symbolic I think...ok, I'm thru rambling now! :)
Archive 1-3-2002